We get what we try to avoid || 🎙️ Episode 348 on Reclaiming Indigenous Wisdom in Facilitation with Katerina Kupenga


Dear Reader,

Do you avoid difficult conversations? The 'constructive' feedback? The cancellation of an appointment? The ask for a raise?

If so, what's the story you tell yourself when you do?

What if they won't like me? What if they get angry? What if they push back or shut down or accuse me of making things bigger than they are? What if they dismiss what I say? What if they think I'm the problem? What if I actually am???

As I've observed not only my own responses but those of participants in my trainings, I've realised what's actually happening: we're projecting our own issues onto the other person.

If we have people-pleasing issues, we fear they won't like us after we say what we need to say. If we're afraid of conflict, we fear we'll cause one. If we doubt our self-worth, we believe they'll dismiss our perspective.

But what if not?

What if they're actually grateful to finally hear an honest opinion about their new website/business idea/partner? What if they're grateful you cancelled the appointment, stating you needed time for yourself—because it finally gives them permission to do the same, something they didn't dare ask for? What if your boss finds inspiration in your ask for a raise and follows your example?

Here's the cruel irony: We project our fears onto others for no reason. Then we not only hold back from important conversations that could change our lives—we often trigger the exact situation we feared most.

When we become too apologetic giving constructive feedback (out of fear of not being liked), it comes out wrong and the person ends up not liking us anyway. When we pile on excuses for cancelling an appointment instead of being honest, the person thinks we're making a fuss out of nothing.

The very thing we're trying to avoid, we create.

So what conversation are you not having?

🎙 Meanwhile, on the podcast…

Carrying the wisdom of five generations before her, Katerina Kupenga inherited a special legacy from her ancestral namesake: the gift of Māori facilitation.

And as a proud wahine Māori from Ngāti Porou, Katerina joins me to share this rich wisdom with us all. She guides us through the sacred welcoming rituals of the Pōwhiri, the complexities of tribal relations, the spiritual intimacy of exchanging breath, and the energy work that takes place as people, ancestors, emotions, and tension are invited into being.

This is a truly special conversation about what it means to be Māori, and the unique indigenous methods that acknowledge the Māori people of the land.

Find out about:

  • The traditional Māori rituals, chants, and the guidance of the gods that take place during workshops
  • Katerina’s journey to relearning the wisdom and culture of her people
  • The importance of honouring Māori practices and language – free of Western agendas, structures and timeframes
  • Facilitating conversations and tensions around intergenerational, ancestral traumas
  • The unconscious biases that exist in the facilitation sector, and the alternative perspectives we need

🎧 Click here to listen to the interview

📥 Check out my 1-page summary

WW_Episode_348-summary.pdf

👀 Watch the unedited interview on Youtube

video preview

🎧 Podcast Club is Coming

From January 2026, the workshops work podcast will become the Unprofessionalism podcast but it shall flourish after retirement:

I am building a podcast club on Substack: For now, the idea is still raw and evolving, which is a good thing, I believe, as we can shape it together! At the heart of it lies a shared intention: to keep the 355+ podcast episodes alive and to use the collective wisdom to fuel our own facilitation practice.

I want to keep it simple and accessible, which means: I won’t start a new community 😅

Instead, I’ll be using Substack as the podcast archive and platform because it allows you to access all the content: audio, video, 1-page summary, links, group chat and comments! I imagine keeping the full content free of charge but adding a paywall to comments, the chat and monthly calls — once the group reaches a critical mass of at least 20 people.

And if there is one thing I’ve learned from NeverDoneBefore, it’s the power of co-creation. So we’ll begin with a first gathering in November. It’s a chance for early believers to shape this club together.

Sign up for the free gathering

If this sounds like something you’d like to be part of, you can join the Substack here: https://myriamhadnes.substack.com/

***

That’s it from my side! I hope you enjoy the content and find inspiration in the stories and podcast. Wishing you a week filled with unexpectedly positive outcomes of seemingly difficult conversations!

Myriam

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